JohnCenaFan28
01-03-2009, 11:44 PM
Q Okay.
A -- anything that would potentially injure -- that
would potentially injure that talent or put that talent in
harm's way or another person.
Q So there is no expectation that if the talent is
using steroids that have been prescribed that they have an
obligation under this policy to inform their supervisor of
that?
A We do know of multiple talent that we do have.
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Q So talent -- are they required to tell you if they
are taking --
A They are not required to. It doesn't affect that,
but we are aware in multiple situations.
Q And how are you aware?
A Because, again, they tell us. We know when they
have certain injuries and how they are treating them -- old
injuries, neck injuries and things such as that so --
Q I'm actually thinking of the steroid use. Do you
know about talent who are currently using steroids
prescribed by doctors?
A I know of one talent specific -*Q
Okay.
A -- and I know of another one that is a form of
regeneration, I believe it is.
Q Uh-huh.
A So that is a form of steroid, but it is not --
Q But they are not required under the policy, -- under
the existing policy, they are not required to notify you?
A Under this existing policy, if it does not affect
their work, they are not required to tell us.
BY MR BUFFONE:
Q Do you know what steroids they are using, by any
chance?
A I don't know it off the top of my head.
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Q You talk about wrestlers who have been suspended,
wrestlers who have been let go, and wrestlers who have been
sent to rehab because of drug and other problems. How are
they informed? How does that process work?
A Well, most of these guys don't have an agent,
lawyer, attorney or anybody who you would send an official
letter to. In the case where they have -- we have one -- I
think it is a document that you have that the names are
blanked out. It is a Hollywood person who has an agent,
attorney so we were able to send them something.
In the past, if it is just the person and they don't
have representation, we called them up and told them.
Q So it is all done through phone calls? There are no
letters?
A No, that will not happen anymore. Everything will
be highly documented.
Q So for all the other times you sent people to
rehab when you say you "sent" people, do you pay for the
rehab or
A It just depends. Sometimes they have had insurance
that has covered a rehab. We offered to continue to pay
them even though they are not on the show. That's usually
their biggest concern, is I can't go without money while I
do that. So that's why these people don't go. They are in
fear of loss of their job, which is a reality in other
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places, and a fear of loss of payment, which is a reality.
So we have tried to remove those two elements to let them
know it's okay. If something does happen and you relapse,
you need to go get help.
Q So beyond the two letters of this committee there is
no documentation at all that you have suspended wrestlers,
let wrestlers go, sent wrestlers to rehab?
A It would be documented in the Internet because
everything gets out, I would assume, somewhere along the
line. But, no, we try to keep that extremely confidential.
There is one instance in particular where I was the
only person talking -- I did not tell a single other person
because of their family situation and things such as that to
help them.
EXAMINATION
BY MR CHANCE:
Q In the beginning, it wasn't necessarily ill will in
terms of drug testing
A III will?
Q It was more or less limited by resources, in talking
about paper and things like that, but now that you have
these attractions and positive cash flow has that opened up
your options in terms of creating this more confidence in
the drug policy?
A It helps tremendously, obviously. But I think we
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felt like back then we truly were a television production
company, filming three times a week, putting on a wrestling
show. And we felt like by developing a policy very, very
quickly that no other wrestling organization but the WWE
had, no other television production company had, they don't
test their people, movie studios are not testing people who
have the chiseled bodies who you know there is a good chance
they may not be real as well. We felt like that was being
proactive in our position.
At that point, we may have been 1 or 2, maybe 2.5
percent of WWE's revenues and maybe spending four or five or
six, seven times that just to literally pay our guys and
stay alive. So at the time we really felt proud of this
document and felt like it was something that no other
wrestling company, even those that were truly touring and
truly working their guys a lot more than ours were doing,
and we were trying to take a stand at that point.
But when we knew we were going to be signing or hoped
to sign in October a new 2-hour deal, we felt like the
resources would be there. That's why we decided in the
summer we can bring in a medical doctor to do preventative
stuff and ask him fly him in and ask him to give us his
entire day, which we know would be in the thousands of
dollars for proactive things. We can do full screenings
instead of random screenings to back up what we wanted to
do, and that was the plan.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q Why don't you get us caught up to date now. Tell us
what your plans are and what your specific time frames are
for developing the testing program and how the program will
be run and what the penalties will be.
A We are still in development of that program. It has
got to be right. It really does. We have got to make
sure -- and that's why you go through drafts of things, and
this silly little talent policies and procedures probably
went -- without the drug part of it probably went through 30
revisions to make sure that we hadn't left anything out. I
will charge people with making sure that this is a very
tight, proactive document with everything spelled out.
Q When do you intend to put this into effect?
A It has to be in place by the time we do the testing,
which is the January time frame.
Q So you will do your testing in January?
A Uh-huh.
Q The letter to the committee, the August 30th, 2007,
letter to the committee, that also mentions TNA planning to
provide seminar sessions to educate TNA talent and their
families about the use of steroids and other drugs?
A Correct.
Q Have those seminars taken plaGe?
A Not yet.
Q When will they take place?
A We need to schedule them. We have talked about it.
We have talked about -- we have been in discussion with a
doctor who we would like to bring in who has agreed to come
in, give us a full day at his practice and conduct such
conversations. So we are hoping within the next couple of
months.
[Carter Exhibit No. 9
was marked for identification.]
BY MR. COHEN:
Q When did you sign the contract?
A October 4th, for the 2-hour show.
Q If you could, I think it would be helpful to maybe
get back to us with some of the specifics on who you've -*you've
mentioned the National Center for Drug Free Sport.
A Uh-huh.
Q If you could provide us with a list of the
individuals with whom you consulted in preparing a policy
A Okay.
Q I think that would be helpful to us.
A We have or will consult with, right?
Q Yes. Your plans are to begin testing in January.
That's coming up pretty quick. We're at December 5th now?
Mr. Cacheris. Sixth.
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Ms. Carter. We have been discussing this and looking
at policies since May.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q Is there a new draft of a policy in place yet?
A Not anything in writing, no. We just talked about
it, except for the things we listed out and the documents,
the things we wanted to include. It will take this existing
drug policy and it will list out every specific thing on
there, which is, you know much like WWE's.
Q Have you begun discussing with laboratories how they
would be conducting the testing?
A I would assume so, since we already had one
scheduled for September 10th. So since that had already
been scheduled, I would assume they had talked about it. I
did not actually set that up, so I would not know at any
level exactly the details of how that was done.
Q Okay.
A But it was going to be done in Orlando when
everybody was present at one time.
Q I would ask that over the next several weeks that,
as you begin to move towards this January testing date, that
you keep the committee abreast of your plans on a fairly
detailed basis.
A Absolutely.
Q You didn't need to call us every hour, but to the
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extent that you hit benchmarks -*A
Sure.
Q That when you have a draft policy in place, if you
could send us that policy.
A Absolutely.
Q When you have contracted with someone to run the
program or a lab to conduct the testing, if you could let us
know about that.
A Right.
Q And if you've got -- when you inform your talent
when testing will begin, that's another benchmark that I
think we'd like to be informed of. And then when the first
tests are actually conducted, we would appreciate knowing
about that.
A Absolutely. What we will do is, obviously, we will
put everything in writing. And in the past we haven't had
the necessary need to present reporting to outside people.
It was more a matter of making sure it was done. But it's
important to me personally, it's important to my company
that -- you talk about we are a different kind of company.
Well, how can you be if -- for you to even throw the word
out that we're a safe haven is offensive, and we need to
make sure that perceptions of people on the outside and
those not with some kind of an agenda who might be talking
about us who have or want to work with us or something along
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those lines -- so it is important that we now have the
resources.
More than anything else, we are now going to start
touring, and w~ have that obligation to do so. We were
trying to give ourselves that obligation, even though we
were with them three times a month.
There are some serious issues in wrestling way beyond
steroids, you know, based upon the number of days these guys
work, pain pills, what's causing these guys to die. You
know, all of those, you know, would be great if we can begin
working together to change that image, that's a positive for
us.
Q I've asked this question generally, so I apologize
if I'm being a bit redundant --
A Then I'm not answering it properly, obviously.
Q No, I may not have asked the question correctly. I
asked for a specific timeframe about the policy itself.
Again, I think through the fact that if you're going to
start testing in January, time must be running pretty short.
I assume you feel you are under some sort of pressure to get
this written policy done. Do you have a specific deadline
that you have for the written policy?
A By the time we conduct the test, we need to be able
to hand it to them and let them know.
BY MR BUFFONE:
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Q So are you okay with handing the talent the policy
the day of testing?
A Uh-huh. They will be told, obviously, in advance
that we are going to do that. We will tell them what we'll
test for, but they don't need -- I mean, they can all think
they are being terminated, as far as I'm concerned, if they
fail it. The specifics of it are not as important to me as
it will be to them to know.
Q Some of the specifics of the test, have you
discussed what drugs you are going to test for?
A From my understanding, we are testing the panel 5 or
the 5 panel and steroids.
Q Have you been part of the -- I'm guessing you've
been a part of the discussions of developing the policy?
A Correct.
Q But do you know of steroids -- there are a lot of
different types of steroids. Has there been a discussion of
which steroids you will test for?
A It is my understanding that the steroids we're
testing for there's a variety of them, all of them. I
understand Marion Jones went for Olympic medals and still
had that happen. But from my understanding the steroid test
we're taking is very thorough.
Q Okay.
A I think it is four times the cost of the panel 5
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test, so I think it does cover multiple potentials".
Q Have you discussed collection process of the sample,
how you are actually going to get the sample?
A From my understanding, the way we have done the ones
in the past is they would come to Terry Taylor and only be
discussed within a certain amount of people within the
company, that it is privileged information, but they will
provide it.
Q Do you recall any conversations about who will
collect the sample?
A This outside company in Florida. I believe it was
Centra Care is the name of the company.
Q Okay.
A They have a team who does this for large groups, not
individual patients who come in.
Q Okay.
A They would be collecting the sample, doing the
testing and then providing us the results.
Q You mentioned before that Terry Taylor would look at
the prescriptions. Have you had any discussions about
exactly the process of determining whether a prescription is
by a treating physician for a valid medical purpose?
A What will happen is by this date -- what we were
going to do in September is anything that might potentially
show up in this testing they need to provide us their proof
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from a doctor under his letterhead and things such as that
and we will check out the doctors to make sure, not us
personally, but have somebody who is a physician check out
the doctors.
Q You do expect a medical physician to check out the
prescriptions?
A Absolutely, absolutely. That's not something that
Terry Taylor or any of us would ever try to handle.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q Do you have any plans to conduct blood testing to
test for human growth hormone?
A We have done blood testing. I don't know we've
we've conducted thorough blood testing, but I don't know if
it tested for that or not. I don't believe so.
Mr. Hundley. I don't think so.
EXAMINATION
BY MR BUFFONE:
Q Do you plan to do a lot of Internet pharmacy
prescriptions?
A I don't know if that's been discussed. I know that
out of all the listings of the Internet names that have come
out none of those are on our roster that have been active
with us have ever received any Internet drugs whatsoever,
not even drugs that would be from these pharmacies that
would be legitimate. Again, if that would have been, we
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would have immediately had testing on that person and then
reacted based upon that test.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q Is there plans to conduct continuous testing or is
this a single testing?
A No, this will be ongoing. The word "proactive" is
where we will be. We want this to be -- again, we're not
the industry leader at all, but this is something we can be
an industry leader in. We have talked about having some of
our younger, healthy guys, our good-looking healthy guys do
PSAs about drug abuse and steroids that we could go to Spike
with and see if every network gets a certain amount of PSA
time, that if we provided something like that that that's
something where we could take a strong leadership position
in. But we would want to make sure that we've got all the
documentation in writing to make sure that we don't open
ourselves up for any questions.
Q Okay.
Do you have a budget figure in mind? It sounds like
you guys watch your budget pretty carefully.
A We can breathe right now, so it's a lot different.
I'm pretty sure that it will be costly, but it is a cost
that we're willing to and have the means now to be able to
spend on it. You know, it has to be completely
comprehensive, and I'm sure that we'll find the right way to
79
do it.
Q Have you thought through -- is there a budget figure
in mind?
A I think on an ongoing basis this is 200, $250 per
person. So you're talking times 50 or 60 a couple times per
year, and then we will continue if there is a cause to
random drug test. I think now, based upon this hearing and
things such as that, even if we are aware somebody is doing
something, we will probably go to the extent of making sure.
Q Okay. You had mentioned the signature pharmacy
case, the 11 -- there has been 11 wrestlers, there has been
any number of professional baseball, football players whose
names have come out in relation to that.
A Uh-huh.
Q Have you been contacted at all by the Albany
District Attorney's office?
A No.
Q Regarding the signature pharmacy case?
A We've had no names on the list. Kurt Angle's name
was on the list for something I believe in 2004, but that
has been -- he didn't join us until October, November, 2006.
Q Did you make any efforts to reach out to the
signature pharmacy I'm sorry, to the Albany District
Attorney regarding the signature pharmacy case?
A No. I don't know what reason we would have had to
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do so.
Mr. Cohen. I'm going to turn I think to an August
24th, 2007, e-mail from Matt Conway. It is a fax from Matt
Conway to Steve Campbell. We will call that Exhibit 10.
[Carter Exhibit No. 10
Was marked for identification.]
BY MR. COHEN:
Q Who is Matt Conway?
A Matt Conway works for Andy. And again when these
multiple lists of all of these wrestlers have come out they
have been listed anywhere from 60 to 120, I believe. And I
don't know if there is a definitive list. They are not
all -- there is a lot of multitude of reasons for death
besides drug on this list. But Andy had asked Matt to go
back and look at every single show line-up that we had, and
if anybody even made an appearance on our show who -- if any
of those would have been on the most extensive of lists that
are public --
Q What was your response to this list? Was this
passed up to you?
A Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
Q What's your response?
A Well, I went through and reviewed each talent and
what the individual situation was per person; and I would be
happy to lead you through that.
81
Q No, that's okay. I'm just curious.
Have you spoken to your wrestlers? Are they
concerned about -- there has been a lot of talk in the
media. To what extent has it filtered down to the wrestlers
themselves? Are they saying we have a real problem here
that we need to fix? Do they not want to talk about it?
What is the sense you get from your talent regarding the
concerns about the lifestyle --
A That's a very good question.
Q -- and what causes it?
A That's a very good question. I think that you would
have a different answer for the guys in their 40s than you
would for the 20 somethings, the newer guys who are in the
business. The 40 somethings are those that some of them do
have baggage and who have experienced -- I think the '80s
was a time of great indulgence of drugs and of steroids.
Almost every talent to a fault was of the cartoonish
physique, and it was pretty much expected that that's how
you got your place in the business at that time, so I think
it ran rampant.
A majority of people on that list, in the talents'
perception, were mid -- very few really, really top names
like Eddie Guerrero or Chris Benoit, and they believed that
these guys didn't make a lot of money.
If you think I'm paying guys 400 today now, that's like
82
big potatoes compared to what they made back then, and they
worked 300 -- crazy amount of days just to stay by. They
were all in a tremendous amount of physical pain, that there
was a cycle that is common that they are aware of, that is,
the pain medicines to be able to wrestle, the Somas, which I
believe are the muscle relaxers for afterwards and then the
Vicodin or something to be able to sleep. And it is that
trifecta when combined with alcohol or some other things
that have caused the majority of these deaths.
If you ask them almost to the personnel today is
absolutely night and day difference from what these guys who
are dying so young went through. And I have had -- with our
new talent, it is just a breath of fresh air, because this
is foreign to them.
But the guys who are in their 40s who knew a lot of
these guys and actually worked with them, and many of them
had problems themselves, that's what they say. And that's
what they feel like the real travesty is, this schedule. It
creates a perpetual problem that puts these guys in a
tailspin. And then you combine it when their 15 minutes of
fame is over, they weren't that famous to begin with, they
didn't save any money, they are depressed as hell, and it is
a sad existence. It really is. It is tragic.
Q This is probably a question that probably affects
your younger wrestlers at TNA more than almost anyone. With
83
baseball, when we looked at the stars of Major League
Baseball you hear that the most -- kind of the saddest
stories we heard were the players who didn't quite make it,
who were clean and didn't quite make it and got stuck in
triple A and looked and saw their peers and their colleagues
who they were clean and they were just as good or better
than, and they saw those ~eople cheat and they saw them get
a leg up.
In some ways, it seems like TNA -- some of the TNA
wrestlers might be in the same position. They haven't made
it to the big time yet. They want to get there, and they
see and have the sense that there's people who aren't as
good as them, aren't as talented as them, who are making it
because they are cheating or they are using steroids. Have
you heard from your wrestlers or is there a concern for some
of them that there needs to be a policy so that they -- to
protect the good guys?
A I think you just drew the perfect distinction that,
in baseball, steroids is a performance enhancer; in
wrestling, it has nothing to do with your performance and,
in fact, it inhibits your performance. Because you are so
bulked up you can't get out there and move in the ring. So
then it becomes one of a purely physical desire on their
part.
Q Right.
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A And they are working for a company who, if you were to go down -- and I would invite all of you to come down to Orlando and come look at every one of our talent and see, and you can look at them to a fault -- I don't know if you want me to do that, but my point is they are told you don't have to be a certain way. I have chubby, I have very chubby, I have downright fat guys that work for me, and they are accepted and they are pushed as hard as anybody else.
Their appearance in my company -- and I can only speak for my company because I know I have a different perception of these guys. But, you know, there's Shark Boy, he's pudgy. And here is my number one brand new talent, very muscularly built not, but he is the fastest, most amazing guy in the ring that you can imagine. And he wears his drawers up to there and that's who he is and we're not going to change him and that's who he was.
One of the newest guys that we signed he could stand to do some sit-ups, but he does not have to use steroids to participate.
Mr. Cacheris. The point being if there was use of steroids --
Ms. Carter. They would not look like this. We have a group called the X Division. They are young, 20 somethings guys who are -- this guy went to George Mason, is a graduate student there, and he is a professional wrestler at night.
They guys don't have to look the part. They have to be great in the ring. And that is the way that we run this company.
Even some of the famous guys, they are big and bulky
and have to wear shirts like that to cover their guts. But
he is the best talker in the business.
Mr. Cacheris. Don't use names.
Ms. Carter. And people will know exactly who I am
talking about, just putting those two comments together.
It is an attitude and the way you run your company and
the tone you set from the ,very top to let people know that
is not not only not accepted, it's not wanted, it is not
a part of what you have to be successful in this company.
And it is, you know, to a T, you know, and I could have
brought many more. Let me tell you these type of people
would never be successful in any other wrestling
organization.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q Do you feel that -- I'm going to put you on the spot
a little bit.
A Yes, sir.
Q I had told you that we had some interviewees who had
stated that TNA was a haven for drug users. Do you think
that WWE is a haven for drug users? You seem to be drawing
a distinction between the types of athletes and talent you
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have and the body type and the talents and body type of the
WWE wrestlers.
A Uh-huh.
Q Do you think that WWE has a situation where, because
of either their steroid policy is failing or because it is
not tough enough or because they are looking the other way,
does -- do you have to use steroids to make it in the WWE?
Do you have to create the superhuman body and superhuman
physique and cartoonish figure that's not going to happen
naturally?
A It has been more prevalent in that company, there is
no doubt. And I think history has proved that's there's a
lot of athletes out there who have beat the stringent drug
testing system.
I can't really comment on the effectiveness of theirs.
All I can say is that you have to -- you have to back up
what you're saying.
If I said, guys, no steroids, no steroids, we want to
be a clean company, okay. Get rid of that gut. If you
don't put on 40 pounds, your ass is off.
You run your company like that and that's wrong. You
say, guys, we want to be clean. We want you to be healthy.
You are fine the way you are.
I have one guy that is so upset because he is just so
chubby and can't quit eating, but he is a wonderful guy, and
87
I cannot tell him any more than I have, you are okay, don't
worry about it.
That is a difference. And I don't have it all in
writing and I don't have that, but that is how we run this
company, and that is very, very important to me. We're a
close-knit group, and we are family, and we don't want nor
desire to be that kind of company.
Q Does WWE -- do your wrestlers ever move from TNA up
to WWE?
A We've had a few that have wanted to, and the main
reason is the money. We just cannot pay them
pay our guys a fraction of what they would pay.
I mean, we
In
actuality, to keep us out of the business
Mr. Cacheris. He's asking from TNA. Would WWE --
Ms. Carter. Yes, that's what I'm talking about. In
actuality, they would like to hire everyone of our talent
away from us and just pay them a lot of money and put them
in obscure places, never put them on television just to put
us out of business. And every chance they get when a
contract comes up they dangle a lot of money in front of
them. A few have taken it. Not one has seen success. They
are doing it for another reason, not to build that talent.
Competition is healthy, but some people don't see it that
way.
BY MR. COHEN:
88
Q Do you have a sense that any of your wrestlers think
that they need to take performance-enhancing drugs to make
it in the WWE?
A Any of my --
Q Any of your wrestlers, if they want to move over to
WWE and get the big paychecks?
A No, I think -- you know, I couldn't answer for them.
If they felt like they'd make more money, would they cross
that line? I don't know. I would hope that they wouldn't.
Mr. Cohen. Okay. We're getting to the home stretch
here. I have -- see if there is anybody else.
BY MR CHANCE:
Q I would going to say, spin it into a positive thing,
as a safe haven. Maybe you can consider yourself a safe
haven to save those guys from that lifestyle, that you
embrace this natural, positive, healthy type of wrestling?
A Absolutely. Everything I do is try to do that for
this company. And I do get defensive if somebody does feel
that in a negative way.
We are a place for second chances. We are a place for
people who have been kicked out on the street. There are a
couple of these people who begged us for a job who passed
away that they just didn't have the talent or whatever,
didn't have anything to do. They weren't doing drugs at the
time or anything else. And, you know, a guy commits suicide
89
afterwards, that's horrific and terrible.
But we want to be a place where people do have that
opportunity, a place where they can bring their kids. I
bring my kids everywhere I go. They are encouraged to bring
their kids. They don't travel a lot. We go to one
location, it is just a different environment.
And I can't talk and I've never been a part of anybody
else's company. All I know is to create the kind of company
that I would want myself or my kids to work for.
90
RPTS KESTERSON
DCMN BURRELL
[3:00 p.m.]
BY MR. COHEN:
Q Do you think the expectations that wrestlers feel
the need to make it in the WWE affects the talent pool that
you have to draw from, that there are wrestlers that would
be good talent who might engage in activities that you
wouldn't accept in TNA to potentially make WWE and therefore
you wouldn't hire them in TNA?
A Oh, absolutely. Those that can't abide by our rules
or whatever. And there are those out there. I mean, there
are some good talent that would be great roster additions
for us, but they couldn't be. You know what I'm saying?
And so we wouldn't -- we wouldn't want them to be a part of
our team.
Q So that image of what a wrestler is supposed to be
right now that you're trying to work against is hurting even
wrestlers who aren't with WWE but are just in the
independent circles, is hurting the talent pool --
A I don't think so. I think what you are looking at
these days -- all my young guys, all those came from the
independent circles and that's what they look like. They're
allowed to be themselves. And I'm sure there are some that
since they were a boy dreamed of being like Hulk Hogan and
91
looking like him and becoming a WWE wrestler. And it has
been their dream and now all the sudden here is this TNA
company and, you know, they have a choice now. And there
are a lot of WWE talent that contact us on an ongoing basis
who are in contracts, want to get out of contract because
they just cannot -- it is a lifestyle. They can't live that
lifestyle any more or they choose not to. And sometimes
they learn money is not everything. Money is not· worth a
lot of things. And that is my biggest pitch to people, is
that I can't give you the money one day, I pray that we'll
all be successful and be able to make more money, but I can
give you a completely different environment and a different
existence. And I don't ask for a lot. I don't think this
is asking for a lot, to be clean, to show up, to, you know,
be a part of a team, to be good in the ring. That's not
asking for a lot. I'm not asking them to leave their
families or to be out on the road or, you know, to do all
those other things. This is -- this is an easy existence
compared to what some of them are used to. And I would
encourage you instead of just talking to wrestlers who are
no longer with companies, who have potential disgruntled
feelings, perceptions, et cetera, to maybe talk to existing
wrestlers, any of my people. Like I said, come down, et
cetera. So, you know --
Mr. Cohen. All right. We are getting to the home
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stretch. Do you want to take a break?
Ms. Carter. I'm fine.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q This next set questions with regard to your general
approach to wrestlers' health and safety and activity in the
ring. First question is actually not on wrestlers but on
referees. Where are your referees from?
A They are from allover. We -- allover the country.
They're usually referees for high school basketball, college
sports, things such as that.
Q What kind of training do they receive?
A Just the same training that you would to be a, you
know, college basketball coach or high school soccer, you
know -- excuse me -- referee or things such as that.
Referee, not coach.
Q Do they have any specific medical training?
A No, absolutely not. They are part of the show.
They are players in the show. They know when the guy is
going to bump, they tell them how many more minutes is left
in the match. They tell them we are running short, cut it
out a minute. They wear an earpiece and they are part of
the show.
Q Okay. Do they have the authority to end a match to
the extent there is an injury?
A Oh, absolutely. The second person right here, Chris
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Candido, this was a first match on a pay-per-view. He broke
his ankle, which was obviously a serious injury and we
had -- he called it. So we knew immediately that it was
real and that sometimes they even fool me. I don't know if
somebody is really injured or if they're just playing it up.
And, you know, the trainers were in that fast and took him
backstage.
Q And do you have a ringside doctor?
A Yes, we do. We have an orthopedic surgeon who is at
every event and we have two licensed trainers that are there
as well. And we work with the guys on the preventative
stuff in advance of the show and then they are there in case
there is any kind of serious issue and then to work with
them afterwards.
Q Okay. Do they conduct physical exams of any kind
before the show or after the show?
A No.
Q Okay. So can you walk quickly -- their authorities
and their responsibilities at a match.
A What--
Q The doctors.
A -- the doctors would do? They don't have any
responsibilities in the match. They're there to make sure
the talent would go in there, I've got a strained knee, I've
got -- the big guy has sciatica problems, you know. And we
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have a masseuse also that is there, a sports masseuse and
you know, so we just try to -- you know, if they have any
little aches or pains going in, tape them up properly, et
cetera. And the doctor is there in case there is any kind
of serious injury and then obviously we have EMT on location
as well.
Q Is -- to the extent they feel a match is
legitimately becoming dangerous and it is, do they have the
authority or the ability to stop a match? The example is
the ringside -- ringside doctors in boxing who have some
authority that goes beyond what the referee in a boxing
match has to stop a match. Do your ringside doctors have
any of that authority, the ability to communicate with the
individuals inside the ring?
A Really it is us communicating to them that we have
an injury. Because if a guy goes down, whether it be a
sprained ankle, broken leg, we've had very, very few
injuries. Our guys -- their biggest propensity to be hurt
is when they're working independent shows against guys who
do not know how to protect them in the ring. But if there
is something, they will communicate to the referee, the
referee communicates it backstage and they're out there, you
know, they're right there. They just sit kind of off camera
right in the back and then they'd come in.
Q Okay. If -- did they have the authority do your
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doctors or do your trainers, do they have the authority -- I
imagine this is pretty macho business. If someone comes in
that has got a sprained ankle, a sprained knee, you know,
they're hurting one way or another, they probably don't want
to admit it. Is there a procedure in place by which one of
your ringside doctors can --
A Absolutely.
Q They can say I'm looking at you and you can't go, no
way? Can you require a wrestler to take a medical leave?
A Can you require -- oh, absolutely. Just a couple of
weeks ago at a pay-per-view, the first guy I showed you, the
bigger guy injured his foot. He saw the ortho guy right
afterwards. And before we would allow him to be on the show
the next day, he had to go and get an MRI on his foot and
get a doctor clearance at the hospital.
Q Okay.
A But obviously they are not there with those kind of
equipment, so we had to send them on to the hospital.
Q Okay. Chair shots have been a big issue for WWE.
Do TNA wrestlers take chair shots to the head?
A They do, uh-huh.
Q Are they scripted?
A Yes, they are.
BY MR. BUFFONE:
Q Are these chair shots where they are putting their
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arms up or are these chair shots directly to the head?
A It is a little of both. I mean, they know how to
protect themselves. You know what I'm saying? They know
how to make it look -- when they slap somebody, that big
thumping slap sound that sounds like it hurts like heck, the
guys are hitting their own thighs. They know how to do
that. Like, you won't even see and notice it. But I do
notice a few dummies that just sit there and take it and
then we have to tell them backstage you have to, you know,
put your hands up.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q How about pile drivers, unpadded surfaces are again
something that has been an issue for WWE. Are those kind of
moves scripted into TNA?
A All the moves that are done are I mean, we would
not allow any talent to do anything that is going to
jeopardize that cannot be protected. I don't think that
there is a move if properly executed that you and I could
not potentially take. I know it sounds -- I mean, we've had
people with absolutely no experience get in there and take
things and you just -- there is a trust issue that if you
can get past that, which I can't personally, but if you did,
you could be protected in every move out there. But you
have to know what you are doing. That is why it is very
important that these people have a clear mind in doing so.
97
Q How much control do you have over the matches? Is
it a case where you're telling people we need a 6-minute
match here, you're going to be the winner, go to work? Or
are you -- do you control the entire script of a match?
A There is a psychology to the match. And it is,
okay, you're going over on him in 6 minutes, to use your
example, and that you need to come out and. you're trying to
get your character over. So you're -- you're the bad guy,
so you're beating on her and she makes a superman comeback
and then she takes you out and the audience is hooked the
whole time. That is all scripted. We have what we call
agents to help the talent, for them to articulate the script
of it into the physical movements of it and the guys and the
agents come in, they lay that out and then the agents
communicate that to more the senior executives on the
creative committee and the television production committee
to let them know where they are going to be at what time.
They are going to be out of the ring at this point, about 3
minutes into the match, and then they'll go back in, there
will be a big spot with a ladder and he is going to jump off
and that is going to happen about 5 minutes in the match.
Q So it is fair to say that you may not control every
single move, but you control the script of the match?
A Correct.
Q And the -- and you're able to -- you specify the
98
highlights?
A Absolutely. The direction. And then they put
together -- they each have a kind of roster of signature
moves that they all use.
Q Okay. Concussions, have you ever diagnosed
wrestlers with concussions?
A Oh, man.
Q Not you specifically?
A ,Right, no. Absolutely not is the answer then. We
have had, I believe, some people who have had mild
concussions who have been checked out and then we have to go
in and rewrite the show. Let's say it happens on a first
taping, then we have to go back and rewrite the show. If it
happens on a first taping, ,the we have to go back in and
rewrite it where they can be there ringside or something
potentially if they're able to or capable with a doctor -*with
a doctor's permission but then they would have to be
pulled out of the actual match, the physical matches
themselves.
BY MR. BUFFONE:
Q And it is the ringside doctors that diagnose that
concussion?
A You can't, I don't believe. I mean, he can say I
think it is mild. But if they think it is anything more
than just very, very mild, they have to go to the hospital.
99
BY MR. COHEN:
Q With concussions, if they in an individual match,
they're taken out and taken to the hospital. Is there a
period of time that they then have to layoff if they've had
a concussion?
A The doctor would dictate that to us, not us to them.
Q Okay. So the doctor -- you follow doctor's orders
on that?
A Absolutely.
Q And
A And these are all independent doctors who are the
doctor on staff at the local hospital. They have no vested
interest in us, don't know who we are or anything.
Q You tape three times a week and pay your wrestlers
on a per appearance?
A Correct.
Q If you have a scenario where someone gets a
concussion and the doctor says he needs 2 weeks off, would
they still be paid for the time they --
A It depends. Most of the times, they are all cleared
to stand there, but they're not cleared for physical
activity with a concussion. So in that case, we'd have to
scramble, rewrite the script, either put somebody in
their write in the injury into the script and they'd
still be on the show, they'd get paid but they are not
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there. Those that we actually sent home because of problems
with, you know, drugs and all lately, we have paid for that
time off.
Q The script -- the way the matches are scripted,
could you script things on a move-by-move basis if you
wanted? I mean, do you have the contractual right
A These guys are like golfers. I mean, if you have
ever seen a golfer go, oh, you remember 4 years ago on that
fourth tee shot I hit off 13 at Master's. I mean, they
remember all of these moves. So, I mean, when they are
sitting there that afternoon in a 2 or 3-hour period, they
will layout in their minds and then they talk to each other
where you don't see it hopefully. But they talk to each
other through the matches and they have to adjust. If
somebody does tweak a knee or do whatever, then they have to
adjust and he'll start holding his knee and they have to
adjust to that in the ring and almost make it a part of the
story line.
Is that what you were asking.
Q I was just wondering about your ability to control
what happens in the ring. If you -- I guess part of my
thinking is that again, I think wrestlers -- you're
right, it sounds like they have a way of doing things. You
know, if you were interested in preventing concussions and
preventing some of these chair shots, it might not be enough
101
to tell them -- to give them just -- to give them -- you
might have to dictate move by move this is what you are
going to do here, this is what you are going to db here,
basically in an effort to keep them from not doing X, Y and
Z. If you needed to script an entire match, move by move,
could you do that?
A Potentially. But you can only script what these
guys do best. If she has her 10 best moves, I'm not going
to make her do his moves that are easier to say something
because she is going to hurt somebody doing his moves
because she doesn't do them. So I think, you know, they
each have their stable, their roster, their repertoire that
they pull from that is safe and, you know, and some of them
look like they have a higher degree. Some of the most
difficult degree of difficulties we have are the safest
moves in the ring.
Q Okay. Do you have the right to tell your wrestlers
they cannot do X, Y and Z?
A Absolutely.
Q That they have to do specific things? Can you tell
them they have to do this in the ring and they cannot do
that in the ring?
A You have the right, absolutely. There have been
moves that we've seen without permission given or discussion
in advance that we can't say anything about because it
102
happens before you can do it and then you say don't you ever
do that again, I didn't tell you because I knew you wouldn't
let me do it, don't ever do it again.
Q You can tell them I want you to do these five moves
in the ring, I do not want you to do these three moves in
the ring?
A I do not tell them what moves to do, you know.
These guys know better than I and everybody else what they
can and cannot do safely. And, you know, they have been
doing this a long time. And we haven't had any -- we've
been doing this 5-1/2 years. We've had one broken bone and
that is it. And he died because of a blood clot because the
hospital didn't tell him he could fly, that he shouldn't fly
within a period of time, and that's what happened and it was
a horrible tragedy. But we've never had any more injuries
than that. These guys are very, very good at what they do.
Lots of stitches.
Q Multiple concussions?
A We haven't had -- we haven't had a serious
concussion and we've had a few mild concussions, but not -*not
one single serious concussion from my memory.
BY MR. BUFFONE:
Q How many people have you sent to the hospital for
concussions? Do you have any recollection of the number?
A I don't know off the top of my head. If they don't
103
pass the -- it is a mild from the doctor backstage, then
they would have to go. But like I'm saying, it has been
very few and I don't know if any of them even checked out to
be a serious concussion. I do know that I have some guys on
my roster that have had serious concussions from previous
jobs. But under TNA I don't believe so from memory.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q Physicals. Your letter indicates that Dr. Jason
Pirozzolodo conducts the physicals. Is this correct?
A I believe that's correct.
Q When you conduct a physical, what do you screen for?
What do you ask Dr. Pirozzolodo to do with the physicals?
A These are based on governing bodies of State
regulations and they would layout that a full physical
that X, Y and Z has to be under certain labs have to be
run, et cetera. And that is -- the doctor would be provided
that and asked to comply with the tests that we need.
Q So you're under State authority in Florida?
A Correct. But if we were to tour to Missouri by
chance, they have one of the most stringent athletic codes
and regulations. And actually the Missouri State regulator
is the President of the entire body and, you know, we have
again out there a stellar reputation of trying to go above
and beyond any of these requests that people do.
Q And despite -- you do fall under the authority of
104
State athletic commissions?
A Absolutely. Every State you run in, you have to
file the paperwork, you have to determine what their -- and
there is a lot of talk on the State level right now on
should there be broader restrictions. You know, some States
you don't have to have anything. You write a check and you
get the deal. I mean, you get the license. Other States
have tremendously rigid ones and, you know, we follow
whatever the State regulatory is. But I do know that there
is discussions on there to look at more stringent
regulations.
Q Okay. You may not know the answer to this. Are you
set up in such a way with regard to -- I know with WWE there
was a big deal over their disclosure that they were not
sport, they were entertainment, which released them from a
fair amount of regulation of State regulatory authority. Do
you do things differently such that you're -- you continue
to fall under those State regulatory authorities or
is scripted and it is more like, you know, we're
A We're not considered sport. It is more wrestling
Jackie Chan
action sequence a lot during that. But we don't fall under
the same rules and regulations as other sport maybe coming
into coming into a State.
Q Okay. So generally you're falling under the
Florida -- because you're primarily in Orlando and don't do
105
much touring yet, but you fall under Florida
A But the States we have, you contact each one of them
and determine their regulations.
Q Okay. So how often -- under the Florida regs now -*how
often does Dr. Pirozzolodo conduct the physicals?
A We've had physicals I believe with the entire talent
roster in December at the end of last year, March or April
of this year and then we were going to do it again this
summer. We'll do it probably one more time during, you
know we'll look to do those probably twice a year.
Q Okay. Have you ever had a talent fail a physical?
A No. We've had a few who have had elevated heart
rates that we made get cleared before they went in there.
We had a man with an elevated liver problem. He was an
older gentleman and almost 60. Anybody who has had little
pieces, we made them go to the doctor and come back to us
and show us that, you know, their problem was solved. And
on the heart stuff, we've also -- if anybody has had
elevated even day of show, we have also taken you know with
a heart monitor to make sure that it is double checked.
Q And has Dr. Pirozzolodo ever communicated any
concerns about drug abuse generally or steroid or painkiller
use specifically among your wrestlers?
A No. And from my understanding, the elevated levels
that you'd look for for certain drugs, they were not present
106
as well.
Mr. Cohen. I'm done.
BY MR. BUFFONE:
Q I have one quick question. You described to us that
since wrestling -- it was known that wrestling has been
fake, it has become a much more dangerous sport.
A That it has become more dangerous?
Q Yes. That now that people think that it is not
real, they do more dangerous moves and do more actions that
really are more dangerous and do potentially get hurt
because people believe that they aren't real. Is it your
understanding that all TNA moves pretty much are safe and
that really that is not true, that these are trained
professionals doing safe moves?
A I would disagree because the curtain has been pulled
back and they see that the wizard is back there. I think it
is because we live in a day and age of the X games and you
see 7 and 8-year-old boys doing freaky flips off of a
mountain with their little two-wheelers. And you've got,
you know, video games now that these guys are playing that
are showing superhuman moves and things such as that. So I
think that has been more the reason that things have become
elevated and people try to top different moves 'really
because it is just the nature of our generation right now
and where we are at in television and sport than anything
107
else. I don't believe it is just because they believe it is
not real.
Does that answer your question?
Q I guess it is not really that it is not real. But
because it is not real, they've been allowed to do more and
more extreme things --
A They are not doing anything now that they didn't do
before. People just maybe now know that, God, that
person -- there are still some that choose to believe. And
really what it is, it is no different for a movie. For a
period of time you sit there and you suspend disbelief. You
suspend disbelief that Tom Cruise is married to Katie Holmes
and he divorced Nicole Kidman and that he really is this
person in Mission Impossible. It is the same thing here.
You suspend disbelief that this guy is Abyss the Monster and
he is a 6 foot 8, 300-pound man that canceled a date to come
be at my daughter's birth and hold her in his hand from here
to here. That is my Monster Abyss. You know so people know
in real life that he is not a real monster that wears a mask
and has this kind of crazy thing. I think they've just came
to realize that that -- it is a movie, it is television, it
is scripted. And I think for a while professional wrestling
wanted people to believe it was real. But I think Vince
made the decision single handedly and was in a position to
pull the curtain back, and I don't know if he did it for
108
selfish reasons because, oh, this protects me from having to
comply with this, that or the other or if it was some other
strategic move. I don't know.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q Do you know Mr. McMahon? Do you know him
personally?
A No. I've never talked to him.
Mr. Cacheris. Are we done?
Mr. Cohen. We're done.
[Whereupon, at 3:30 p.m., the interview was concluded.]
A -- anything that would potentially injure -- that
would potentially injure that talent or put that talent in
harm's way or another person.
Q So there is no expectation that if the talent is
using steroids that have been prescribed that they have an
obligation under this policy to inform their supervisor of
that?
A We do know of multiple talent that we do have.
66
Q So talent -- are they required to tell you if they
are taking --
A They are not required to. It doesn't affect that,
but we are aware in multiple situations.
Q And how are you aware?
A Because, again, they tell us. We know when they
have certain injuries and how they are treating them -- old
injuries, neck injuries and things such as that so --
Q I'm actually thinking of the steroid use. Do you
know about talent who are currently using steroids
prescribed by doctors?
A I know of one talent specific -*Q
Okay.
A -- and I know of another one that is a form of
regeneration, I believe it is.
Q Uh-huh.
A So that is a form of steroid, but it is not --
Q But they are not required under the policy, -- under
the existing policy, they are not required to notify you?
A Under this existing policy, if it does not affect
their work, they are not required to tell us.
BY MR BUFFONE:
Q Do you know what steroids they are using, by any
chance?
A I don't know it off the top of my head.
67
Q You talk about wrestlers who have been suspended,
wrestlers who have been let go, and wrestlers who have been
sent to rehab because of drug and other problems. How are
they informed? How does that process work?
A Well, most of these guys don't have an agent,
lawyer, attorney or anybody who you would send an official
letter to. In the case where they have -- we have one -- I
think it is a document that you have that the names are
blanked out. It is a Hollywood person who has an agent,
attorney so we were able to send them something.
In the past, if it is just the person and they don't
have representation, we called them up and told them.
Q So it is all done through phone calls? There are no
letters?
A No, that will not happen anymore. Everything will
be highly documented.
Q So for all the other times you sent people to
rehab when you say you "sent" people, do you pay for the
rehab or
A It just depends. Sometimes they have had insurance
that has covered a rehab. We offered to continue to pay
them even though they are not on the show. That's usually
their biggest concern, is I can't go without money while I
do that. So that's why these people don't go. They are in
fear of loss of their job, which is a reality in other
68
places, and a fear of loss of payment, which is a reality.
So we have tried to remove those two elements to let them
know it's okay. If something does happen and you relapse,
you need to go get help.
Q So beyond the two letters of this committee there is
no documentation at all that you have suspended wrestlers,
let wrestlers go, sent wrestlers to rehab?
A It would be documented in the Internet because
everything gets out, I would assume, somewhere along the
line. But, no, we try to keep that extremely confidential.
There is one instance in particular where I was the
only person talking -- I did not tell a single other person
because of their family situation and things such as that to
help them.
EXAMINATION
BY MR CHANCE:
Q In the beginning, it wasn't necessarily ill will in
terms of drug testing
A III will?
Q It was more or less limited by resources, in talking
about paper and things like that, but now that you have
these attractions and positive cash flow has that opened up
your options in terms of creating this more confidence in
the drug policy?
A It helps tremendously, obviously. But I think we
69
felt like back then we truly were a television production
company, filming three times a week, putting on a wrestling
show. And we felt like by developing a policy very, very
quickly that no other wrestling organization but the WWE
had, no other television production company had, they don't
test their people, movie studios are not testing people who
have the chiseled bodies who you know there is a good chance
they may not be real as well. We felt like that was being
proactive in our position.
At that point, we may have been 1 or 2, maybe 2.5
percent of WWE's revenues and maybe spending four or five or
six, seven times that just to literally pay our guys and
stay alive. So at the time we really felt proud of this
document and felt like it was something that no other
wrestling company, even those that were truly touring and
truly working their guys a lot more than ours were doing,
and we were trying to take a stand at that point.
But when we knew we were going to be signing or hoped
to sign in October a new 2-hour deal, we felt like the
resources would be there. That's why we decided in the
summer we can bring in a medical doctor to do preventative
stuff and ask him fly him in and ask him to give us his
entire day, which we know would be in the thousands of
dollars for proactive things. We can do full screenings
instead of random screenings to back up what we wanted to
do, and that was the plan.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q Why don't you get us caught up to date now. Tell us
what your plans are and what your specific time frames are
for developing the testing program and how the program will
be run and what the penalties will be.
A We are still in development of that program. It has
got to be right. It really does. We have got to make
sure -- and that's why you go through drafts of things, and
this silly little talent policies and procedures probably
went -- without the drug part of it probably went through 30
revisions to make sure that we hadn't left anything out. I
will charge people with making sure that this is a very
tight, proactive document with everything spelled out.
Q When do you intend to put this into effect?
A It has to be in place by the time we do the testing,
which is the January time frame.
Q So you will do your testing in January?
A Uh-huh.
Q The letter to the committee, the August 30th, 2007,
letter to the committee, that also mentions TNA planning to
provide seminar sessions to educate TNA talent and their
families about the use of steroids and other drugs?
A Correct.
Q Have those seminars taken plaGe?
A Not yet.
Q When will they take place?
A We need to schedule them. We have talked about it.
We have talked about -- we have been in discussion with a
doctor who we would like to bring in who has agreed to come
in, give us a full day at his practice and conduct such
conversations. So we are hoping within the next couple of
months.
[Carter Exhibit No. 9
was marked for identification.]
BY MR. COHEN:
Q When did you sign the contract?
A October 4th, for the 2-hour show.
Q If you could, I think it would be helpful to maybe
get back to us with some of the specifics on who you've -*you've
mentioned the National Center for Drug Free Sport.
A Uh-huh.
Q If you could provide us with a list of the
individuals with whom you consulted in preparing a policy
A Okay.
Q I think that would be helpful to us.
A We have or will consult with, right?
Q Yes. Your plans are to begin testing in January.
That's coming up pretty quick. We're at December 5th now?
Mr. Cacheris. Sixth.
72
Ms. Carter. We have been discussing this and looking
at policies since May.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q Is there a new draft of a policy in place yet?
A Not anything in writing, no. We just talked about
it, except for the things we listed out and the documents,
the things we wanted to include. It will take this existing
drug policy and it will list out every specific thing on
there, which is, you know much like WWE's.
Q Have you begun discussing with laboratories how they
would be conducting the testing?
A I would assume so, since we already had one
scheduled for September 10th. So since that had already
been scheduled, I would assume they had talked about it. I
did not actually set that up, so I would not know at any
level exactly the details of how that was done.
Q Okay.
A But it was going to be done in Orlando when
everybody was present at one time.
Q I would ask that over the next several weeks that,
as you begin to move towards this January testing date, that
you keep the committee abreast of your plans on a fairly
detailed basis.
A Absolutely.
Q You didn't need to call us every hour, but to the
73
extent that you hit benchmarks -*A
Sure.
Q That when you have a draft policy in place, if you
could send us that policy.
A Absolutely.
Q When you have contracted with someone to run the
program or a lab to conduct the testing, if you could let us
know about that.
A Right.
Q And if you've got -- when you inform your talent
when testing will begin, that's another benchmark that I
think we'd like to be informed of. And then when the first
tests are actually conducted, we would appreciate knowing
about that.
A Absolutely. What we will do is, obviously, we will
put everything in writing. And in the past we haven't had
the necessary need to present reporting to outside people.
It was more a matter of making sure it was done. But it's
important to me personally, it's important to my company
that -- you talk about we are a different kind of company.
Well, how can you be if -- for you to even throw the word
out that we're a safe haven is offensive, and we need to
make sure that perceptions of people on the outside and
those not with some kind of an agenda who might be talking
about us who have or want to work with us or something along
74
those lines -- so it is important that we now have the
resources.
More than anything else, we are now going to start
touring, and w~ have that obligation to do so. We were
trying to give ourselves that obligation, even though we
were with them three times a month.
There are some serious issues in wrestling way beyond
steroids, you know, based upon the number of days these guys
work, pain pills, what's causing these guys to die. You
know, all of those, you know, would be great if we can begin
working together to change that image, that's a positive for
us.
Q I've asked this question generally, so I apologize
if I'm being a bit redundant --
A Then I'm not answering it properly, obviously.
Q No, I may not have asked the question correctly. I
asked for a specific timeframe about the policy itself.
Again, I think through the fact that if you're going to
start testing in January, time must be running pretty short.
I assume you feel you are under some sort of pressure to get
this written policy done. Do you have a specific deadline
that you have for the written policy?
A By the time we conduct the test, we need to be able
to hand it to them and let them know.
BY MR BUFFONE:
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Q So are you okay with handing the talent the policy
the day of testing?
A Uh-huh. They will be told, obviously, in advance
that we are going to do that. We will tell them what we'll
test for, but they don't need -- I mean, they can all think
they are being terminated, as far as I'm concerned, if they
fail it. The specifics of it are not as important to me as
it will be to them to know.
Q Some of the specifics of the test, have you
discussed what drugs you are going to test for?
A From my understanding, we are testing the panel 5 or
the 5 panel and steroids.
Q Have you been part of the -- I'm guessing you've
been a part of the discussions of developing the policy?
A Correct.
Q But do you know of steroids -- there are a lot of
different types of steroids. Has there been a discussion of
which steroids you will test for?
A It is my understanding that the steroids we're
testing for there's a variety of them, all of them. I
understand Marion Jones went for Olympic medals and still
had that happen. But from my understanding the steroid test
we're taking is very thorough.
Q Okay.
A I think it is four times the cost of the panel 5
76
test, so I think it does cover multiple potentials".
Q Have you discussed collection process of the sample,
how you are actually going to get the sample?
A From my understanding, the way we have done the ones
in the past is they would come to Terry Taylor and only be
discussed within a certain amount of people within the
company, that it is privileged information, but they will
provide it.
Q Do you recall any conversations about who will
collect the sample?
A This outside company in Florida. I believe it was
Centra Care is the name of the company.
Q Okay.
A They have a team who does this for large groups, not
individual patients who come in.
Q Okay.
A They would be collecting the sample, doing the
testing and then providing us the results.
Q You mentioned before that Terry Taylor would look at
the prescriptions. Have you had any discussions about
exactly the process of determining whether a prescription is
by a treating physician for a valid medical purpose?
A What will happen is by this date -- what we were
going to do in September is anything that might potentially
show up in this testing they need to provide us their proof
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from a doctor under his letterhead and things such as that
and we will check out the doctors to make sure, not us
personally, but have somebody who is a physician check out
the doctors.
Q You do expect a medical physician to check out the
prescriptions?
A Absolutely, absolutely. That's not something that
Terry Taylor or any of us would ever try to handle.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q Do you have any plans to conduct blood testing to
test for human growth hormone?
A We have done blood testing. I don't know we've
we've conducted thorough blood testing, but I don't know if
it tested for that or not. I don't believe so.
Mr. Hundley. I don't think so.
EXAMINATION
BY MR BUFFONE:
Q Do you plan to do a lot of Internet pharmacy
prescriptions?
A I don't know if that's been discussed. I know that
out of all the listings of the Internet names that have come
out none of those are on our roster that have been active
with us have ever received any Internet drugs whatsoever,
not even drugs that would be from these pharmacies that
would be legitimate. Again, if that would have been, we
78
would have immediately had testing on that person and then
reacted based upon that test.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q Is there plans to conduct continuous testing or is
this a single testing?
A No, this will be ongoing. The word "proactive" is
where we will be. We want this to be -- again, we're not
the industry leader at all, but this is something we can be
an industry leader in. We have talked about having some of
our younger, healthy guys, our good-looking healthy guys do
PSAs about drug abuse and steroids that we could go to Spike
with and see if every network gets a certain amount of PSA
time, that if we provided something like that that that's
something where we could take a strong leadership position
in. But we would want to make sure that we've got all the
documentation in writing to make sure that we don't open
ourselves up for any questions.
Q Okay.
Do you have a budget figure in mind? It sounds like
you guys watch your budget pretty carefully.
A We can breathe right now, so it's a lot different.
I'm pretty sure that it will be costly, but it is a cost
that we're willing to and have the means now to be able to
spend on it. You know, it has to be completely
comprehensive, and I'm sure that we'll find the right way to
79
do it.
Q Have you thought through -- is there a budget figure
in mind?
A I think on an ongoing basis this is 200, $250 per
person. So you're talking times 50 or 60 a couple times per
year, and then we will continue if there is a cause to
random drug test. I think now, based upon this hearing and
things such as that, even if we are aware somebody is doing
something, we will probably go to the extent of making sure.
Q Okay. You had mentioned the signature pharmacy
case, the 11 -- there has been 11 wrestlers, there has been
any number of professional baseball, football players whose
names have come out in relation to that.
A Uh-huh.
Q Have you been contacted at all by the Albany
District Attorney's office?
A No.
Q Regarding the signature pharmacy case?
A We've had no names on the list. Kurt Angle's name
was on the list for something I believe in 2004, but that
has been -- he didn't join us until October, November, 2006.
Q Did you make any efforts to reach out to the
signature pharmacy I'm sorry, to the Albany District
Attorney regarding the signature pharmacy case?
A No. I don't know what reason we would have had to
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do so.
Mr. Cohen. I'm going to turn I think to an August
24th, 2007, e-mail from Matt Conway. It is a fax from Matt
Conway to Steve Campbell. We will call that Exhibit 10.
[Carter Exhibit No. 10
Was marked for identification.]
BY MR. COHEN:
Q Who is Matt Conway?
A Matt Conway works for Andy. And again when these
multiple lists of all of these wrestlers have come out they
have been listed anywhere from 60 to 120, I believe. And I
don't know if there is a definitive list. They are not
all -- there is a lot of multitude of reasons for death
besides drug on this list. But Andy had asked Matt to go
back and look at every single show line-up that we had, and
if anybody even made an appearance on our show who -- if any
of those would have been on the most extensive of lists that
are public --
Q What was your response to this list? Was this
passed up to you?
A Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
Q What's your response?
A Well, I went through and reviewed each talent and
what the individual situation was per person; and I would be
happy to lead you through that.
81
Q No, that's okay. I'm just curious.
Have you spoken to your wrestlers? Are they
concerned about -- there has been a lot of talk in the
media. To what extent has it filtered down to the wrestlers
themselves? Are they saying we have a real problem here
that we need to fix? Do they not want to talk about it?
What is the sense you get from your talent regarding the
concerns about the lifestyle --
A That's a very good question.
Q -- and what causes it?
A That's a very good question. I think that you would
have a different answer for the guys in their 40s than you
would for the 20 somethings, the newer guys who are in the
business. The 40 somethings are those that some of them do
have baggage and who have experienced -- I think the '80s
was a time of great indulgence of drugs and of steroids.
Almost every talent to a fault was of the cartoonish
physique, and it was pretty much expected that that's how
you got your place in the business at that time, so I think
it ran rampant.
A majority of people on that list, in the talents'
perception, were mid -- very few really, really top names
like Eddie Guerrero or Chris Benoit, and they believed that
these guys didn't make a lot of money.
If you think I'm paying guys 400 today now, that's like
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big potatoes compared to what they made back then, and they
worked 300 -- crazy amount of days just to stay by. They
were all in a tremendous amount of physical pain, that there
was a cycle that is common that they are aware of, that is,
the pain medicines to be able to wrestle, the Somas, which I
believe are the muscle relaxers for afterwards and then the
Vicodin or something to be able to sleep. And it is that
trifecta when combined with alcohol or some other things
that have caused the majority of these deaths.
If you ask them almost to the personnel today is
absolutely night and day difference from what these guys who
are dying so young went through. And I have had -- with our
new talent, it is just a breath of fresh air, because this
is foreign to them.
But the guys who are in their 40s who knew a lot of
these guys and actually worked with them, and many of them
had problems themselves, that's what they say. And that's
what they feel like the real travesty is, this schedule. It
creates a perpetual problem that puts these guys in a
tailspin. And then you combine it when their 15 minutes of
fame is over, they weren't that famous to begin with, they
didn't save any money, they are depressed as hell, and it is
a sad existence. It really is. It is tragic.
Q This is probably a question that probably affects
your younger wrestlers at TNA more than almost anyone. With
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baseball, when we looked at the stars of Major League
Baseball you hear that the most -- kind of the saddest
stories we heard were the players who didn't quite make it,
who were clean and didn't quite make it and got stuck in
triple A and looked and saw their peers and their colleagues
who they were clean and they were just as good or better
than, and they saw those ~eople cheat and they saw them get
a leg up.
In some ways, it seems like TNA -- some of the TNA
wrestlers might be in the same position. They haven't made
it to the big time yet. They want to get there, and they
see and have the sense that there's people who aren't as
good as them, aren't as talented as them, who are making it
because they are cheating or they are using steroids. Have
you heard from your wrestlers or is there a concern for some
of them that there needs to be a policy so that they -- to
protect the good guys?
A I think you just drew the perfect distinction that,
in baseball, steroids is a performance enhancer; in
wrestling, it has nothing to do with your performance and,
in fact, it inhibits your performance. Because you are so
bulked up you can't get out there and move in the ring. So
then it becomes one of a purely physical desire on their
part.
Q Right.
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A And they are working for a company who, if you were to go down -- and I would invite all of you to come down to Orlando and come look at every one of our talent and see, and you can look at them to a fault -- I don't know if you want me to do that, but my point is they are told you don't have to be a certain way. I have chubby, I have very chubby, I have downright fat guys that work for me, and they are accepted and they are pushed as hard as anybody else.
Their appearance in my company -- and I can only speak for my company because I know I have a different perception of these guys. But, you know, there's Shark Boy, he's pudgy. And here is my number one brand new talent, very muscularly built not, but he is the fastest, most amazing guy in the ring that you can imagine. And he wears his drawers up to there and that's who he is and we're not going to change him and that's who he was.
One of the newest guys that we signed he could stand to do some sit-ups, but he does not have to use steroids to participate.
Mr. Cacheris. The point being if there was use of steroids --
Ms. Carter. They would not look like this. We have a group called the X Division. They are young, 20 somethings guys who are -- this guy went to George Mason, is a graduate student there, and he is a professional wrestler at night.
They guys don't have to look the part. They have to be great in the ring. And that is the way that we run this company.
Even some of the famous guys, they are big and bulky
and have to wear shirts like that to cover their guts. But
he is the best talker in the business.
Mr. Cacheris. Don't use names.
Ms. Carter. And people will know exactly who I am
talking about, just putting those two comments together.
It is an attitude and the way you run your company and
the tone you set from the ,very top to let people know that
is not not only not accepted, it's not wanted, it is not
a part of what you have to be successful in this company.
And it is, you know, to a T, you know, and I could have
brought many more. Let me tell you these type of people
would never be successful in any other wrestling
organization.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q Do you feel that -- I'm going to put you on the spot
a little bit.
A Yes, sir.
Q I had told you that we had some interviewees who had
stated that TNA was a haven for drug users. Do you think
that WWE is a haven for drug users? You seem to be drawing
a distinction between the types of athletes and talent you
86
have and the body type and the talents and body type of the
WWE wrestlers.
A Uh-huh.
Q Do you think that WWE has a situation where, because
of either their steroid policy is failing or because it is
not tough enough or because they are looking the other way,
does -- do you have to use steroids to make it in the WWE?
Do you have to create the superhuman body and superhuman
physique and cartoonish figure that's not going to happen
naturally?
A It has been more prevalent in that company, there is
no doubt. And I think history has proved that's there's a
lot of athletes out there who have beat the stringent drug
testing system.
I can't really comment on the effectiveness of theirs.
All I can say is that you have to -- you have to back up
what you're saying.
If I said, guys, no steroids, no steroids, we want to
be a clean company, okay. Get rid of that gut. If you
don't put on 40 pounds, your ass is off.
You run your company like that and that's wrong. You
say, guys, we want to be clean. We want you to be healthy.
You are fine the way you are.
I have one guy that is so upset because he is just so
chubby and can't quit eating, but he is a wonderful guy, and
87
I cannot tell him any more than I have, you are okay, don't
worry about it.
That is a difference. And I don't have it all in
writing and I don't have that, but that is how we run this
company, and that is very, very important to me. We're a
close-knit group, and we are family, and we don't want nor
desire to be that kind of company.
Q Does WWE -- do your wrestlers ever move from TNA up
to WWE?
A We've had a few that have wanted to, and the main
reason is the money. We just cannot pay them
pay our guys a fraction of what they would pay.
I mean, we
In
actuality, to keep us out of the business
Mr. Cacheris. He's asking from TNA. Would WWE --
Ms. Carter. Yes, that's what I'm talking about. In
actuality, they would like to hire everyone of our talent
away from us and just pay them a lot of money and put them
in obscure places, never put them on television just to put
us out of business. And every chance they get when a
contract comes up they dangle a lot of money in front of
them. A few have taken it. Not one has seen success. They
are doing it for another reason, not to build that talent.
Competition is healthy, but some people don't see it that
way.
BY MR. COHEN:
88
Q Do you have a sense that any of your wrestlers think
that they need to take performance-enhancing drugs to make
it in the WWE?
A Any of my --
Q Any of your wrestlers, if they want to move over to
WWE and get the big paychecks?
A No, I think -- you know, I couldn't answer for them.
If they felt like they'd make more money, would they cross
that line? I don't know. I would hope that they wouldn't.
Mr. Cohen. Okay. We're getting to the home stretch
here. I have -- see if there is anybody else.
BY MR CHANCE:
Q I would going to say, spin it into a positive thing,
as a safe haven. Maybe you can consider yourself a safe
haven to save those guys from that lifestyle, that you
embrace this natural, positive, healthy type of wrestling?
A Absolutely. Everything I do is try to do that for
this company. And I do get defensive if somebody does feel
that in a negative way.
We are a place for second chances. We are a place for
people who have been kicked out on the street. There are a
couple of these people who begged us for a job who passed
away that they just didn't have the talent or whatever,
didn't have anything to do. They weren't doing drugs at the
time or anything else. And, you know, a guy commits suicide
89
afterwards, that's horrific and terrible.
But we want to be a place where people do have that
opportunity, a place where they can bring their kids. I
bring my kids everywhere I go. They are encouraged to bring
their kids. They don't travel a lot. We go to one
location, it is just a different environment.
And I can't talk and I've never been a part of anybody
else's company. All I know is to create the kind of company
that I would want myself or my kids to work for.
90
RPTS KESTERSON
DCMN BURRELL
[3:00 p.m.]
BY MR. COHEN:
Q Do you think the expectations that wrestlers feel
the need to make it in the WWE affects the talent pool that
you have to draw from, that there are wrestlers that would
be good talent who might engage in activities that you
wouldn't accept in TNA to potentially make WWE and therefore
you wouldn't hire them in TNA?
A Oh, absolutely. Those that can't abide by our rules
or whatever. And there are those out there. I mean, there
are some good talent that would be great roster additions
for us, but they couldn't be. You know what I'm saying?
And so we wouldn't -- we wouldn't want them to be a part of
our team.
Q So that image of what a wrestler is supposed to be
right now that you're trying to work against is hurting even
wrestlers who aren't with WWE but are just in the
independent circles, is hurting the talent pool --
A I don't think so. I think what you are looking at
these days -- all my young guys, all those came from the
independent circles and that's what they look like. They're
allowed to be themselves. And I'm sure there are some that
since they were a boy dreamed of being like Hulk Hogan and
91
looking like him and becoming a WWE wrestler. And it has
been their dream and now all the sudden here is this TNA
company and, you know, they have a choice now. And there
are a lot of WWE talent that contact us on an ongoing basis
who are in contracts, want to get out of contract because
they just cannot -- it is a lifestyle. They can't live that
lifestyle any more or they choose not to. And sometimes
they learn money is not everything. Money is not· worth a
lot of things. And that is my biggest pitch to people, is
that I can't give you the money one day, I pray that we'll
all be successful and be able to make more money, but I can
give you a completely different environment and a different
existence. And I don't ask for a lot. I don't think this
is asking for a lot, to be clean, to show up, to, you know,
be a part of a team, to be good in the ring. That's not
asking for a lot. I'm not asking them to leave their
families or to be out on the road or, you know, to do all
those other things. This is -- this is an easy existence
compared to what some of them are used to. And I would
encourage you instead of just talking to wrestlers who are
no longer with companies, who have potential disgruntled
feelings, perceptions, et cetera, to maybe talk to existing
wrestlers, any of my people. Like I said, come down, et
cetera. So, you know --
Mr. Cohen. All right. We are getting to the home
92
stretch. Do you want to take a break?
Ms. Carter. I'm fine.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q This next set questions with regard to your general
approach to wrestlers' health and safety and activity in the
ring. First question is actually not on wrestlers but on
referees. Where are your referees from?
A They are from allover. We -- allover the country.
They're usually referees for high school basketball, college
sports, things such as that.
Q What kind of training do they receive?
A Just the same training that you would to be a, you
know, college basketball coach or high school soccer, you
know -- excuse me -- referee or things such as that.
Referee, not coach.
Q Do they have any specific medical training?
A No, absolutely not. They are part of the show.
They are players in the show. They know when the guy is
going to bump, they tell them how many more minutes is left
in the match. They tell them we are running short, cut it
out a minute. They wear an earpiece and they are part of
the show.
Q Okay. Do they have the authority to end a match to
the extent there is an injury?
A Oh, absolutely. The second person right here, Chris
93
Candido, this was a first match on a pay-per-view. He broke
his ankle, which was obviously a serious injury and we
had -- he called it. So we knew immediately that it was
real and that sometimes they even fool me. I don't know if
somebody is really injured or if they're just playing it up.
And, you know, the trainers were in that fast and took him
backstage.
Q And do you have a ringside doctor?
A Yes, we do. We have an orthopedic surgeon who is at
every event and we have two licensed trainers that are there
as well. And we work with the guys on the preventative
stuff in advance of the show and then they are there in case
there is any kind of serious issue and then to work with
them afterwards.
Q Okay. Do they conduct physical exams of any kind
before the show or after the show?
A No.
Q Okay. So can you walk quickly -- their authorities
and their responsibilities at a match.
A What--
Q The doctors.
A -- the doctors would do? They don't have any
responsibilities in the match. They're there to make sure
the talent would go in there, I've got a strained knee, I've
got -- the big guy has sciatica problems, you know. And we
94
have a masseuse also that is there, a sports masseuse and
you know, so we just try to -- you know, if they have any
little aches or pains going in, tape them up properly, et
cetera. And the doctor is there in case there is any kind
of serious injury and then obviously we have EMT on location
as well.
Q Is -- to the extent they feel a match is
legitimately becoming dangerous and it is, do they have the
authority or the ability to stop a match? The example is
the ringside -- ringside doctors in boxing who have some
authority that goes beyond what the referee in a boxing
match has to stop a match. Do your ringside doctors have
any of that authority, the ability to communicate with the
individuals inside the ring?
A Really it is us communicating to them that we have
an injury. Because if a guy goes down, whether it be a
sprained ankle, broken leg, we've had very, very few
injuries. Our guys -- their biggest propensity to be hurt
is when they're working independent shows against guys who
do not know how to protect them in the ring. But if there
is something, they will communicate to the referee, the
referee communicates it backstage and they're out there, you
know, they're right there. They just sit kind of off camera
right in the back and then they'd come in.
Q Okay. If -- did they have the authority do your
95
doctors or do your trainers, do they have the authority -- I
imagine this is pretty macho business. If someone comes in
that has got a sprained ankle, a sprained knee, you know,
they're hurting one way or another, they probably don't want
to admit it. Is there a procedure in place by which one of
your ringside doctors can --
A Absolutely.
Q They can say I'm looking at you and you can't go, no
way? Can you require a wrestler to take a medical leave?
A Can you require -- oh, absolutely. Just a couple of
weeks ago at a pay-per-view, the first guy I showed you, the
bigger guy injured his foot. He saw the ortho guy right
afterwards. And before we would allow him to be on the show
the next day, he had to go and get an MRI on his foot and
get a doctor clearance at the hospital.
Q Okay.
A But obviously they are not there with those kind of
equipment, so we had to send them on to the hospital.
Q Okay. Chair shots have been a big issue for WWE.
Do TNA wrestlers take chair shots to the head?
A They do, uh-huh.
Q Are they scripted?
A Yes, they are.
BY MR. BUFFONE:
Q Are these chair shots where they are putting their
96
arms up or are these chair shots directly to the head?
A It is a little of both. I mean, they know how to
protect themselves. You know what I'm saying? They know
how to make it look -- when they slap somebody, that big
thumping slap sound that sounds like it hurts like heck, the
guys are hitting their own thighs. They know how to do
that. Like, you won't even see and notice it. But I do
notice a few dummies that just sit there and take it and
then we have to tell them backstage you have to, you know,
put your hands up.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q How about pile drivers, unpadded surfaces are again
something that has been an issue for WWE. Are those kind of
moves scripted into TNA?
A All the moves that are done are I mean, we would
not allow any talent to do anything that is going to
jeopardize that cannot be protected. I don't think that
there is a move if properly executed that you and I could
not potentially take. I know it sounds -- I mean, we've had
people with absolutely no experience get in there and take
things and you just -- there is a trust issue that if you
can get past that, which I can't personally, but if you did,
you could be protected in every move out there. But you
have to know what you are doing. That is why it is very
important that these people have a clear mind in doing so.
97
Q How much control do you have over the matches? Is
it a case where you're telling people we need a 6-minute
match here, you're going to be the winner, go to work? Or
are you -- do you control the entire script of a match?
A There is a psychology to the match. And it is,
okay, you're going over on him in 6 minutes, to use your
example, and that you need to come out and. you're trying to
get your character over. So you're -- you're the bad guy,
so you're beating on her and she makes a superman comeback
and then she takes you out and the audience is hooked the
whole time. That is all scripted. We have what we call
agents to help the talent, for them to articulate the script
of it into the physical movements of it and the guys and the
agents come in, they lay that out and then the agents
communicate that to more the senior executives on the
creative committee and the television production committee
to let them know where they are going to be at what time.
They are going to be out of the ring at this point, about 3
minutes into the match, and then they'll go back in, there
will be a big spot with a ladder and he is going to jump off
and that is going to happen about 5 minutes in the match.
Q So it is fair to say that you may not control every
single move, but you control the script of the match?
A Correct.
Q And the -- and you're able to -- you specify the
98
highlights?
A Absolutely. The direction. And then they put
together -- they each have a kind of roster of signature
moves that they all use.
Q Okay. Concussions, have you ever diagnosed
wrestlers with concussions?
A Oh, man.
Q Not you specifically?
A ,Right, no. Absolutely not is the answer then. We
have had, I believe, some people who have had mild
concussions who have been checked out and then we have to go
in and rewrite the show. Let's say it happens on a first
taping, then we have to go back and rewrite the show. If it
happens on a first taping, ,the we have to go back in and
rewrite it where they can be there ringside or something
potentially if they're able to or capable with a doctor -*with
a doctor's permission but then they would have to be
pulled out of the actual match, the physical matches
themselves.
BY MR. BUFFONE:
Q And it is the ringside doctors that diagnose that
concussion?
A You can't, I don't believe. I mean, he can say I
think it is mild. But if they think it is anything more
than just very, very mild, they have to go to the hospital.
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BY MR. COHEN:
Q With concussions, if they in an individual match,
they're taken out and taken to the hospital. Is there a
period of time that they then have to layoff if they've had
a concussion?
A The doctor would dictate that to us, not us to them.
Q Okay. So the doctor -- you follow doctor's orders
on that?
A Absolutely.
Q And
A And these are all independent doctors who are the
doctor on staff at the local hospital. They have no vested
interest in us, don't know who we are or anything.
Q You tape three times a week and pay your wrestlers
on a per appearance?
A Correct.
Q If you have a scenario where someone gets a
concussion and the doctor says he needs 2 weeks off, would
they still be paid for the time they --
A It depends. Most of the times, they are all cleared
to stand there, but they're not cleared for physical
activity with a concussion. So in that case, we'd have to
scramble, rewrite the script, either put somebody in
their write in the injury into the script and they'd
still be on the show, they'd get paid but they are not
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there. Those that we actually sent home because of problems
with, you know, drugs and all lately, we have paid for that
time off.
Q The script -- the way the matches are scripted,
could you script things on a move-by-move basis if you
wanted? I mean, do you have the contractual right
A These guys are like golfers. I mean, if you have
ever seen a golfer go, oh, you remember 4 years ago on that
fourth tee shot I hit off 13 at Master's. I mean, they
remember all of these moves. So, I mean, when they are
sitting there that afternoon in a 2 or 3-hour period, they
will layout in their minds and then they talk to each other
where you don't see it hopefully. But they talk to each
other through the matches and they have to adjust. If
somebody does tweak a knee or do whatever, then they have to
adjust and he'll start holding his knee and they have to
adjust to that in the ring and almost make it a part of the
story line.
Is that what you were asking.
Q I was just wondering about your ability to control
what happens in the ring. If you -- I guess part of my
thinking is that again, I think wrestlers -- you're
right, it sounds like they have a way of doing things. You
know, if you were interested in preventing concussions and
preventing some of these chair shots, it might not be enough
101
to tell them -- to give them just -- to give them -- you
might have to dictate move by move this is what you are
going to do here, this is what you are going to db here,
basically in an effort to keep them from not doing X, Y and
Z. If you needed to script an entire match, move by move,
could you do that?
A Potentially. But you can only script what these
guys do best. If she has her 10 best moves, I'm not going
to make her do his moves that are easier to say something
because she is going to hurt somebody doing his moves
because she doesn't do them. So I think, you know, they
each have their stable, their roster, their repertoire that
they pull from that is safe and, you know, and some of them
look like they have a higher degree. Some of the most
difficult degree of difficulties we have are the safest
moves in the ring.
Q Okay. Do you have the right to tell your wrestlers
they cannot do X, Y and Z?
A Absolutely.
Q That they have to do specific things? Can you tell
them they have to do this in the ring and they cannot do
that in the ring?
A You have the right, absolutely. There have been
moves that we've seen without permission given or discussion
in advance that we can't say anything about because it
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happens before you can do it and then you say don't you ever
do that again, I didn't tell you because I knew you wouldn't
let me do it, don't ever do it again.
Q You can tell them I want you to do these five moves
in the ring, I do not want you to do these three moves in
the ring?
A I do not tell them what moves to do, you know.
These guys know better than I and everybody else what they
can and cannot do safely. And, you know, they have been
doing this a long time. And we haven't had any -- we've
been doing this 5-1/2 years. We've had one broken bone and
that is it. And he died because of a blood clot because the
hospital didn't tell him he could fly, that he shouldn't fly
within a period of time, and that's what happened and it was
a horrible tragedy. But we've never had any more injuries
than that. These guys are very, very good at what they do.
Lots of stitches.
Q Multiple concussions?
A We haven't had -- we haven't had a serious
concussion and we've had a few mild concussions, but not -*not
one single serious concussion from my memory.
BY MR. BUFFONE:
Q How many people have you sent to the hospital for
concussions? Do you have any recollection of the number?
A I don't know off the top of my head. If they don't
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pass the -- it is a mild from the doctor backstage, then
they would have to go. But like I'm saying, it has been
very few and I don't know if any of them even checked out to
be a serious concussion. I do know that I have some guys on
my roster that have had serious concussions from previous
jobs. But under TNA I don't believe so from memory.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q Physicals. Your letter indicates that Dr. Jason
Pirozzolodo conducts the physicals. Is this correct?
A I believe that's correct.
Q When you conduct a physical, what do you screen for?
What do you ask Dr. Pirozzolodo to do with the physicals?
A These are based on governing bodies of State
regulations and they would layout that a full physical
that X, Y and Z has to be under certain labs have to be
run, et cetera. And that is -- the doctor would be provided
that and asked to comply with the tests that we need.
Q So you're under State authority in Florida?
A Correct. But if we were to tour to Missouri by
chance, they have one of the most stringent athletic codes
and regulations. And actually the Missouri State regulator
is the President of the entire body and, you know, we have
again out there a stellar reputation of trying to go above
and beyond any of these requests that people do.
Q And despite -- you do fall under the authority of
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State athletic commissions?
A Absolutely. Every State you run in, you have to
file the paperwork, you have to determine what their -- and
there is a lot of talk on the State level right now on
should there be broader restrictions. You know, some States
you don't have to have anything. You write a check and you
get the deal. I mean, you get the license. Other States
have tremendously rigid ones and, you know, we follow
whatever the State regulatory is. But I do know that there
is discussions on there to look at more stringent
regulations.
Q Okay. You may not know the answer to this. Are you
set up in such a way with regard to -- I know with WWE there
was a big deal over their disclosure that they were not
sport, they were entertainment, which released them from a
fair amount of regulation of State regulatory authority. Do
you do things differently such that you're -- you continue
to fall under those State regulatory authorities or
is scripted and it is more like, you know, we're
A We're not considered sport. It is more wrestling
Jackie Chan
action sequence a lot during that. But we don't fall under
the same rules and regulations as other sport maybe coming
into coming into a State.
Q Okay. So generally you're falling under the
Florida -- because you're primarily in Orlando and don't do
105
much touring yet, but you fall under Florida
A But the States we have, you contact each one of them
and determine their regulations.
Q Okay. So how often -- under the Florida regs now -*how
often does Dr. Pirozzolodo conduct the physicals?
A We've had physicals I believe with the entire talent
roster in December at the end of last year, March or April
of this year and then we were going to do it again this
summer. We'll do it probably one more time during, you
know we'll look to do those probably twice a year.
Q Okay. Have you ever had a talent fail a physical?
A No. We've had a few who have had elevated heart
rates that we made get cleared before they went in there.
We had a man with an elevated liver problem. He was an
older gentleman and almost 60. Anybody who has had little
pieces, we made them go to the doctor and come back to us
and show us that, you know, their problem was solved. And
on the heart stuff, we've also -- if anybody has had
elevated even day of show, we have also taken you know with
a heart monitor to make sure that it is double checked.
Q And has Dr. Pirozzolodo ever communicated any
concerns about drug abuse generally or steroid or painkiller
use specifically among your wrestlers?
A No. And from my understanding, the elevated levels
that you'd look for for certain drugs, they were not present
106
as well.
Mr. Cohen. I'm done.
BY MR. BUFFONE:
Q I have one quick question. You described to us that
since wrestling -- it was known that wrestling has been
fake, it has become a much more dangerous sport.
A That it has become more dangerous?
Q Yes. That now that people think that it is not
real, they do more dangerous moves and do more actions that
really are more dangerous and do potentially get hurt
because people believe that they aren't real. Is it your
understanding that all TNA moves pretty much are safe and
that really that is not true, that these are trained
professionals doing safe moves?
A I would disagree because the curtain has been pulled
back and they see that the wizard is back there. I think it
is because we live in a day and age of the X games and you
see 7 and 8-year-old boys doing freaky flips off of a
mountain with their little two-wheelers. And you've got,
you know, video games now that these guys are playing that
are showing superhuman moves and things such as that. So I
think that has been more the reason that things have become
elevated and people try to top different moves 'really
because it is just the nature of our generation right now
and where we are at in television and sport than anything
107
else. I don't believe it is just because they believe it is
not real.
Does that answer your question?
Q I guess it is not really that it is not real. But
because it is not real, they've been allowed to do more and
more extreme things --
A They are not doing anything now that they didn't do
before. People just maybe now know that, God, that
person -- there are still some that choose to believe. And
really what it is, it is no different for a movie. For a
period of time you sit there and you suspend disbelief. You
suspend disbelief that Tom Cruise is married to Katie Holmes
and he divorced Nicole Kidman and that he really is this
person in Mission Impossible. It is the same thing here.
You suspend disbelief that this guy is Abyss the Monster and
he is a 6 foot 8, 300-pound man that canceled a date to come
be at my daughter's birth and hold her in his hand from here
to here. That is my Monster Abyss. You know so people know
in real life that he is not a real monster that wears a mask
and has this kind of crazy thing. I think they've just came
to realize that that -- it is a movie, it is television, it
is scripted. And I think for a while professional wrestling
wanted people to believe it was real. But I think Vince
made the decision single handedly and was in a position to
pull the curtain back, and I don't know if he did it for
108
selfish reasons because, oh, this protects me from having to
comply with this, that or the other or if it was some other
strategic move. I don't know.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q Do you know Mr. McMahon? Do you know him
personally?
A No. I've never talked to him.
Mr. Cacheris. Are we done?
Mr. Cohen. We're done.
[Whereupon, at 3:30 p.m., the interview was concluded.]